This is about people dealing in death. Politicians seem to live in a world where their images trump (excuse the word) a moral intent. Lyndon Johnson, in retrospect, based his decision making on dealing with a conflict that was never resolvable. What he and his generals and cabinet did was beyond the pale. We are dragged through fields of dead bodies, victimized by people who never had to go to slaughter. And, of course, that ridiculous falling domino business was at the center. Ultimately, it got down to a country where the people would have been happy to see the country unified. If not for imperialism and interference, they would have gone about their business, doing their daily things. No. Some cockeyed politicians with their heads you know where couldn't leave well enough alone.
The Vietnam War (TV Mini Series)
The River Styx (January 1964-December 1965) (2017)
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"I don't think it's worth fighting for and I don't think we can get out." - President Lyndon Baines Johnson
classicsoncall3 December 2017
Warning: Spoilers
When President Johnson took the oath of office following John F. Kennedy's assassination, he decided to retain all of Kennedy's top advisers in the Cabinet. Personally, Johnson had disagreed with Kennedy's decision to support the coup that ousted South Vietnamese President Ngo Dinh Diem, on the grounds that there weren't any capable leaders that could effectively take Diem's place. Proving that point, South Vietnam went through an astounding eight changes in government in a year and a half, with each military general taking charge seen as a puppet of the U.S. government.
The Viet Cong however, were invigorated over the ouster of Diem, and heightened their guerrilla attacks in the South. In North Vietnam, an aggressive faction led by Le Duan wanted to step up the war in the South, while Ho Chi Minh feared greater American involvement if that were to occur. Similarly, the Soviet Union would have preferred a de-escalation of hostilities, while China was urging worldwide revolution. Ultimately, Le Duan's authority superseded Ho's. He embarked on a country wide purge of jailing or dismissing dissidents who opposed his policies.
Seeing a need for change, LBJ replaced Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge with General Maxwell Taylor, and put General William Westmoreland in charge of all troops in Vietnam. Additionally, he authorized the secret bombing of North Vietnamese troops, including installations in Laos, without telling the American people. Even so, the Joint Chiefs of Staff wanted a further escalation of American involvement, including air strikes and deployment of American ground forces. For the time being, LBJ maintained a less forceful approach.
Things changed following the Gulf of Tonkin incident in July of 1964. Under the direction of the U.S. Military, South Vietnamese ships shelled two North Vietnamese islands in the Gulf of Tonkin. When North Vietnamese torpedo boats fired on the destroyer U.S.S. Maddox, U.S. planes damaged two North Vietnamese boats and left another dead in the water. Even with this attack, Johnson did not retaliate, but issued a warning to the North.
Shortly after, Johnson sent a war resolution up to Congress requesting authority to use force as necessary. It passed the Senate by a vote of 88-2, and was accepted unanimously by The House of Representatives. In North Vietnam, Le Duan's reaction was to send North Vietnamese troops into the South via a makeshift jungle trail through Laos and Cambodia. This became known as the infamous Ho Chi Minh Trail.
By March of 1965, the U.S. began the systematic bombing of North Vietnamese targets to demoralize the North and bolster the South's resolve. This action effectively widened the war, with American ground troops soon to follow with the arrival of a contingent of Marines at Danang. Even though I was just a young teenager at the time, I had managed to keep up with daily news reports on what was happening in Vietnam, even if I had to struggle with the foreign names and abbreviations used to describe such entities as the ARVN (Army of the Republic of South Vietnam), NLF (National Liberation Front), and the Viet Cong (Communist Traitors to the Vietnam Nation). This episode made mention of a Vietnamese youth group opposed to America's involvement in the war I had never heard of. It was called the 'Youth Shock Brigades Against the Americans for National Salvation'. Without a similar nickname, it's not surprising that they aren't remembered to this day.
The Viet Cong however, were invigorated over the ouster of Diem, and heightened their guerrilla attacks in the South. In North Vietnam, an aggressive faction led by Le Duan wanted to step up the war in the South, while Ho Chi Minh feared greater American involvement if that were to occur. Similarly, the Soviet Union would have preferred a de-escalation of hostilities, while China was urging worldwide revolution. Ultimately, Le Duan's authority superseded Ho's. He embarked on a country wide purge of jailing or dismissing dissidents who opposed his policies.
Seeing a need for change, LBJ replaced Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge with General Maxwell Taylor, and put General William Westmoreland in charge of all troops in Vietnam. Additionally, he authorized the secret bombing of North Vietnamese troops, including installations in Laos, without telling the American people. Even so, the Joint Chiefs of Staff wanted a further escalation of American involvement, including air strikes and deployment of American ground forces. For the time being, LBJ maintained a less forceful approach.
Things changed following the Gulf of Tonkin incident in July of 1964. Under the direction of the U.S. Military, South Vietnamese ships shelled two North Vietnamese islands in the Gulf of Tonkin. When North Vietnamese torpedo boats fired on the destroyer U.S.S. Maddox, U.S. planes damaged two North Vietnamese boats and left another dead in the water. Even with this attack, Johnson did not retaliate, but issued a warning to the North.
Shortly after, Johnson sent a war resolution up to Congress requesting authority to use force as necessary. It passed the Senate by a vote of 88-2, and was accepted unanimously by The House of Representatives. In North Vietnam, Le Duan's reaction was to send North Vietnamese troops into the South via a makeshift jungle trail through Laos and Cambodia. This became known as the infamous Ho Chi Minh Trail.
By March of 1965, the U.S. began the systematic bombing of North Vietnamese targets to demoralize the North and bolster the South's resolve. This action effectively widened the war, with American ground troops soon to follow with the arrival of a contingent of Marines at Danang. Even though I was just a young teenager at the time, I had managed to keep up with daily news reports on what was happening in Vietnam, even if I had to struggle with the foreign names and abbreviations used to describe such entities as the ARVN (Army of the Republic of South Vietnam), NLF (National Liberation Front), and the Viet Cong (Communist Traitors to the Vietnam Nation). This episode made mention of a Vietnamese youth group opposed to America's involvement in the war I had never heard of. It was called the 'Youth Shock Brigades Against the Americans for National Salvation'. Without a similar nickname, it's not surprising that they aren't remembered to this day.
What would you do?
cordenw27 September 2017
If you found yourself in the position of final decision maker, what the heck would you do? It seems to me that Lyndon Johnson did what good managers get big bucks for; delegate, discuss, listen to your best men.
All of the stakeholders, in Harvard-Speak, all coming up with key deliverables...... and yet each major decision makes it worse.
All of those guys from think tanks with names like "The Center for Strategic Studies" or "Far Eastern Global Security", (pick any fancy name you like) got it absolutely wrong.
Throw enough men and bombs at them and they'll give up.
Just shows you a big flaw in a Government system where the advisors were picking spuds in Idaho only a matter of months before they got the job!
Meanwhile in places like China, Russia , India ... I could go on , they won't let you near the big desks until you've proved yourself in the art of controlling fractious citizenry in some far off Province or satellite. Here you can have somebody taking their kids to school one day in Alaska and the next week being only a breath away from the Presidency.
Talking about breath , it's breathtaking to learn from this documentary that there were voices of reason sitting at the shoulder of President Johnson in key meetings, telling him repeatedly and forcefully that the war was unwinnable. But he wouldn't listen!
Subsequent world events have shown us that communication and negotiation could have worked. Needless to say that the belligerent, win at all costs, attitude of the Americans, combined with their ignorance of Vietnamese aims, scotched any chance of peace that way.
So as a result, hundreds of thousands died, families devastated on both sides, villages and crops destroyed.
For what?
I'd like to think that most of us would have said "get out, never mind the face saving and we'll see if the domino effect is real or if it's a chimera dreamed up by the press."
Now Vietnam is thriving under a technically Communist government, as is China...... and guess what? We can do business with them easier than we can with most other nations... go figure.
Another super episode that should be required viewing for every single decision maker in the U.S. Government.
All of the stakeholders, in Harvard-Speak, all coming up with key deliverables...... and yet each major decision makes it worse.
All of those guys from think tanks with names like "The Center for Strategic Studies" or "Far Eastern Global Security", (pick any fancy name you like) got it absolutely wrong.
Throw enough men and bombs at them and they'll give up.
Just shows you a big flaw in a Government system where the advisors were picking spuds in Idaho only a matter of months before they got the job!
Meanwhile in places like China, Russia , India ... I could go on , they won't let you near the big desks until you've proved yourself in the art of controlling fractious citizenry in some far off Province or satellite. Here you can have somebody taking their kids to school one day in Alaska and the next week being only a breath away from the Presidency.
Talking about breath , it's breathtaking to learn from this documentary that there were voices of reason sitting at the shoulder of President Johnson in key meetings, telling him repeatedly and forcefully that the war was unwinnable. But he wouldn't listen!
Subsequent world events have shown us that communication and negotiation could have worked. Needless to say that the belligerent, win at all costs, attitude of the Americans, combined with their ignorance of Vietnamese aims, scotched any chance of peace that way.
So as a result, hundreds of thousands died, families devastated on both sides, villages and crops destroyed.
For what?
I'd like to think that most of us would have said "get out, never mind the face saving and we'll see if the domino effect is real or if it's a chimera dreamed up by the press."
Now Vietnam is thriving under a technically Communist government, as is China...... and guess what? We can do business with them easier than we can with most other nations... go figure.
Another super episode that should be required viewing for every single decision maker in the U.S. Government.
The River Styx (January 1964-December 1965)
Prismark1010 October 2017
This episode is inter cut with an elderly woman from the New York state who tells the story of her son Denton Crocker Jr. Her daughter joins her in recounting how as a boy he loved to read and he learned to hate reds.
Denton ran away from home when he was 17 years old and would not return unless his parents signed his army papers as he was keen to join up. We can guess he never returned home.
We are now seeing the hardening of the conflict under Lyndon B Johnson, taking over the presidency from JFK. Deep down LBJ had misgivings, some of his advisers were cautious others wanted hardening of attitudes and the generals wanted escalation of the war. This included a sustained air war in North Korea, tit for tat retaliation and sending ground troops to the south.
However war was never formally declared as one American airman found out, he was not afforded the protections of the Geneva Convention.
Yet we also see stirring of the anti war movement back in the USA with atrocities committed by the US troops in North Vietnam, homes burned, civilians killed and the young soldiers interviewed at the time appearing unconcerned.
A sobering, troubling episode. It ends as the Crockers record a televised Christmas message for their son in Vietnam.
Denton ran away from home when he was 17 years old and would not return unless his parents signed his army papers as he was keen to join up. We can guess he never returned home.
We are now seeing the hardening of the conflict under Lyndon B Johnson, taking over the presidency from JFK. Deep down LBJ had misgivings, some of his advisers were cautious others wanted hardening of attitudes and the generals wanted escalation of the war. This included a sustained air war in North Korea, tit for tat retaliation and sending ground troops to the south.
However war was never formally declared as one American airman found out, he was not afforded the protections of the Geneva Convention.
Yet we also see stirring of the anti war movement back in the USA with atrocities committed by the US troops in North Vietnam, homes burned, civilians killed and the young soldiers interviewed at the time appearing unconcerned.
A sobering, troubling episode. It ends as the Crockers record a televised Christmas message for their son in Vietnam.
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